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	<title>Comments on: Here&#8217;s the thing about modesty&#8230; [Um, Modesty?]</title>
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	<link>http://newvoices.org/2012/04/09/heres-the-thing-about-modesty-um-modesty/</link>
	<description>The Jewish College Student Conversation</description>
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		<title>By: John Wofford</title>
		<link>http://newvoices.org/2012/04/09/heres-the-thing-about-modesty-um-modesty/#comment-7835</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wofford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newvoices.org/?p=11969#comment-7835</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Z--

You&#039;re right, modesty laws apply to both sexes. But, as I point out in the article, that&#039;s usually not where the discussion lies, hence my concentration on one gender. Some of the points you raise are true (modesty for  both genders, and even between gays and lesbians, etc.), but there are lots of assumptions that render the argument a bit null for me: largely the idea that God imposes these modesty restrictions (which alternate in strictness and liberality depending on the generation), and that God does so as a direct result of normal biological function. I also contest your use of the words &quot;obsessed with sex&quot; to describe the human condition; there are reputable studies that say we are all &quot;obsessed with sex&quot;? I find that hard to believe as the primary position of biologists. I agree with you about the importance of balance, though. 

Again, the points you raise I largely agree with. It doesn&#039;t change the central premise of the article, which is that, regardless of modesty&#039;s perceived merits by observant Jews, modesty is a personal choice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Z&#8211;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, modesty laws apply to both sexes. But, as I point out in the article, that&#8217;s usually not where the discussion lies, hence my concentration on one gender. Some of the points you raise are true (modesty for  both genders, and even between gays and lesbians, etc.), but there are lots of assumptions that render the argument a bit null for me: largely the idea that God imposes these modesty restrictions (which alternate in strictness and liberality depending on the generation), and that God does so as a direct result of normal biological function. I also contest your use of the words &#8220;obsessed with sex&#8221; to describe the human condition; there are reputable studies that say we are all &#8220;obsessed with sex&#8221;? I find that hard to believe as the primary position of biologists. I agree with you about the importance of balance, though. </p>
<p>Again, the points you raise I largely agree with. It doesn&#8217;t change the central premise of the article, which is that, regardless of modesty&#8217;s perceived merits by observant Jews, modesty is a personal choice.</p>
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		<title>By: John Wofford</title>
		<link>http://newvoices.org/2012/04/09/heres-the-thing-about-modesty-um-modesty/#comment-7834</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wofford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2012 12:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newvoices.org/?p=11969#comment-7834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tourial--

A fully developed, fully cognitive adult is not a child. (Hence that whole &quot;being a fully developed, fully cognitive adult&quot; thing I just talked about.) And you&#039;re right, imposing those things onto a child is control. It&#039;s also, to a degree, the prerogative of a parent. But once a man (or, for the bulk of this article, a woman) decides whether or not he or she does not want to conform to modesty expectations in the Orthodox world (and let&#039;s be honest, this is primarily a problem in the Orthodox world), she has the autonomy to choose. And since she is a fully developed and fully cognitive adult, she can do whatever the hell she wants. She isn&#039;t a child. The comparison is ridiculous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tourial&#8211;</p>
<p>A fully developed, fully cognitive adult is not a child. (Hence that whole &#8220;being a fully developed, fully cognitive adult&#8221; thing I just talked about.) And you&#8217;re right, imposing those things onto a child is control. It&#8217;s also, to a degree, the prerogative of a parent. But once a man (or, for the bulk of this article, a woman) decides whether or not he or she does not want to conform to modesty expectations in the Orthodox world (and let&#8217;s be honest, this is primarily a problem in the Orthodox world), she has the autonomy to choose. And since she is a fully developed and fully cognitive adult, she can do whatever the hell she wants. She isn&#8217;t a child. The comparison is ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>By: David Z</title>
		<link>http://newvoices.org/2012/04/09/heres-the-thing-about-modesty-um-modesty/#comment-7833</link>
		<dc:creator>David Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newvoices.org/?p=11969#comment-7833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Mr. Wofford: 

(1) A kipa shouldn&#039;t be stopping you from taking your own best interests to heart, but to stop you from doing things you momentarily desire without taking your real best interest into account (whether that&#039;s helping other people or following any other aspect of Jewish Law).  I know this is off-topic, but you brought it up...  :)

(2)  I don&#039;t think it&#039;s creepy to recognize that people are obsessed with sex - read any study on human sexuality.  The same people that decry imposed modesty also extol the virtues of the human sexual animal.  But it&#039;s important to note that nobody believes every encounter with the opposite sex is sexual - just it has that potential (for the 95% or whatever of the population that is heterosexual, or even bisexual).  And G-d tells us to guard against that.  With balance, it&#039;s healthy, without it&#039;s not, just like anything else.  And in no way does the fact that the general laws of the tora were written for the ruba d&#039;ruba (vast majority) of people mean that homosexual men shouldn&#039;t be careful with men like heterosexual men are with women.  You also seem to neglect the fact that Jewish modesty laws apply to men as well, even if it&#039;s not as popular among Modern Orthodox.  All the popular poskim discourages wearing shorts, sleeveless t-shirts, etc.  Pretty much the only difference between men and women would be t-shirts.  At any rate - food for thought.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Mr. Wofford: </p>
<p>(1) A kipa shouldn&#8217;t be stopping you from taking your own best interests to heart, but to stop you from doing things you momentarily desire without taking your real best interest into account (whether that&#8217;s helping other people or following any other aspect of Jewish Law).  I know this is off-topic, but you brought it up&#8230;  <img src='http://newvoices.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>(2)  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s creepy to recognize that people are obsessed with sex &#8211; read any study on human sexuality.  The same people that decry imposed modesty also extol the virtues of the human sexual animal.  But it&#8217;s important to note that nobody believes every encounter with the opposite sex is sexual &#8211; just it has that potential (for the 95% or whatever of the population that is heterosexual, or even bisexual).  And G-d tells us to guard against that.  With balance, it&#8217;s healthy, without it&#8217;s not, just like anything else.  And in no way does the fact that the general laws of the tora were written for the ruba d&#8217;ruba (vast majority) of people mean that homosexual men shouldn&#8217;t be careful with men like heterosexual men are with women.  You also seem to neglect the fact that Jewish modesty laws apply to men as well, even if it&#8217;s not as popular among Modern Orthodox.  All the popular poskim discourages wearing shorts, sleeveless t-shirts, etc.  Pretty much the only difference between men and women would be t-shirts.  At any rate &#8211; food for thought.</p>
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		<title>By: David Z</title>
		<link>http://newvoices.org/2012/04/09/heres-the-thing-about-modesty-um-modesty/#comment-7832</link>
		<dc:creator>David Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 19:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newvoices.org/?p=11969#comment-7832</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First to reply to Tourlai - G-d can make us to whatever He wants.  That is the only case that is analogous to a parent and child.  My next door neighbor cannot command me to do things.  If you mean giving unsolicited advice, any Jew who doesn&#039;t hide their Jewishness is opening them up to a certain amount of unsolicited advice - it&#039;s in the nature of the culture and kol yisrael arevim ze laze.  But a command?  No.  This is how I read Mr. Wofford, at least.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First to reply to Tourlai &#8211; G-d can make us to whatever He wants.  That is the only case that is analogous to a parent and child.  My next door neighbor cannot command me to do things.  If you mean giving unsolicited advice, any Jew who doesn&#8217;t hide their Jewishness is opening them up to a certain amount of unsolicited advice &#8211; it&#8217;s in the nature of the culture and kol yisrael arevim ze laze.  But a command?  No.  This is how I read Mr. Wofford, at least.</p>
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		<title>By: Tourlai</title>
		<link>http://newvoices.org/2012/04/09/heres-the-thing-about-modesty-um-modesty/#comment-7831</link>
		<dc:creator>Tourlai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2012 04:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.newvoices.org/?p=11969#comment-7831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Modesty imposed from the outside with no alternatives, especially through violence, is just control.&quot;

Lets take out that middle phrase, &quot;especially through violence&quot;, because it just clouds the issue.
So now it&#039;s: &quot;Modesty imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.&quot;
Is this true? If so, then maybe the following are true, too:
Making your kid clean his room, imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.
Making your kid speak without profanity, imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.
Making your kid attend school, imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.

If these commands are accompanied by explanations of why they&#039;re good for the person and/or society, then that&#039;s education, not control.

&quot;While modesty, like humility, has its place&quot;
I would be very interested in hearing from the author exactly where modesty has its place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Modesty imposed from the outside with no alternatives, especially through violence, is just control.&#8221;</p>
<p>Lets take out that middle phrase, &#8220;especially through violence&#8221;, because it just clouds the issue.<br />
So now it&#8217;s: &#8220;Modesty imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.&#8221;<br />
Is this true? If so, then maybe the following are true, too:<br />
Making your kid clean his room, imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.<br />
Making your kid speak without profanity, imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.<br />
Making your kid attend school, imposed from the outside with no alternatives is just control.</p>
<p>If these commands are accompanied by explanations of why they&#8217;re good for the person and/or society, then that&#8217;s education, not control.</p>
<p>&#8220;While modesty, like humility, has its place&#8221;<br />
I would be very interested in hearing from the author exactly where modesty has its place.</p>
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