Comments on: The Global Citizen: Far from Zion

By: Jess

Jess — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 21:01:26 +0000

@Julie:
Messianic belief in the divinity of Jesus is viewed by a large majority of Christians and Jews as the defining distinction between Christianity and Judaism. The various streams of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist and Renewal) as well as many Christian leaders reject the idea of Messianism as a form of Judaism. Messianic communities often target Jews for conversion, so you may see that Amy does not want to turn specifically non-messianic Jewish cultural and religious activities into an opportunity for her community to deal with potential proselytizing. Her goal is the support and growth of Jewish culture and a space to celebrate a culture that does not worship Jesus at all. It is a community’s perogative to define it’s own borders; Amy struggles within those borders to define where culture and religious practice intersect.

@Milton:
Technically, Judaism is considered to be an orthopraxy, which means it places emphasis on action and conduct, not on belief. Most other religions came from this beginning as well. Christianity was actually the first orthodoxy – a religion based on doctrine/belief, where belief in Jesus could save you and was more important that your actions. In Judaism today, the most observant Chasids (of which I am not) practice Judaism by performing highly structured rituals. They cannot just sit and believe, they MUST do.
So I would argue that the bedrock of Judaism is action not words. Cultural activities are a form of action greater than sitting around and believing that God gave the Torah directly but not doing anything. (One could also argue that the belief / word of God leads to action and so is the key, but action is still the end goal more than the belief. It doesn’t matter how one arrives at the action.)

By: Alan

Alan — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:43:06 +0000

Wow, the internet really brings the weirdos out of the woodwork. Thanks Amy for writing about your experience.

I think that your confusion is familiar to all of us who grew up in living Jewish families or Jewish communities. What Julie & Milton fail to recognize is that Jewishness, and Judaism, can’t be broken down into these newfangled Western categories of “religion” or “culture”. Western civilization, as we know it, began long after Jewish history had already set down the complex framework that’s so weird to try to explain some times.

I think the short version, as I’ve worked hard to get down to it, would be to say “Jews are a complex of ethnic groups tied together by shared historical heritage and characterized by a unique religious tradition.” That’s why events and communities that support Jewish life cover so many different arenas.

Milton seems to have forgotten the first half of the definition as I’ve framed it – that “Jewish” is a cultural thing as much as it’s a religious thing. Julie seems to have forgotten the second part – that Judaism, despite its diversity in its religious forms, still has very real boundaries: and they don’t include central beliefs of that other religion, Christianity, no matter how dressed up they might be in Hebrew drag.

By: Deena

Deena — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:36:31 +0000

To Julie
I always thought that to be a Christian you had to believe that the saviour had come once and been denied by certain groups, but that means that the entire surrounding events have to be accepted. Then, because he was denied, the end result of the messianic time has not yet occurred but will when he is accepted by everyone. If you believe in Jesus as the messiah, than you cannot call yourselves Jews.
Now if you accept this, you are denying the rest of the Jewish view of the messiah.
We don’t believe in second chances. The messiah comes and things turn out as it is foretold.
Sorry, he hasn’t come yet.
You can’t have it both ways. Either formally convert to Christianity and join with one of the Christian sects oh, wait. so I hear, formal Christian groups don’t usually accept Jews for Jesus as Christians. I do feel as if you’re hedging your bets.
Own up and forget about calling yourselves Jews. Heck, you can still enjoy bagels and lox and use Yiddish terms in your conversation.

By: Milton Greenberg

Milton Greenberg — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:35:28 +0000

Well thought out article. Just one question (or thought for Amy)…What is the bedrock of your faith? Is it your ancestry and perceived heritage as a Jew or is it the Word of God? I propose to you that the bedrock of your faith should be God’s Word. It is on that solid rock that a firm foundation is laid.

By: Michael Reisor

Michael Reisor — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:24:17 +0000

Aw Amy! So well written. I’m very proud of you for your views:D

By: Julie Goodman

Julie Goodman — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:51:57 +0000

I have to say I have a real problem with your lack of recognition of the Jew that accepts Christ as a Savoir. The belief in Christ does not in any way negate the Jewish Identitly of the believer. In your own words “that Judaism was complex in nature, and religion in the traditional sense (ie g-d, prayer, festivals) is woven into the cultural.” “The assumption, wrong but understandable, is that the entire Jewish community has a similar stance on issues”. “Our organization is a wide spectrum of opinions regarding these issues, and we were being asked to have a platform”.
There are almost as many Christ believeing Jews or as we call ourselves Messianic Jews in the world as non- messianic Jews. The fact that your organization has no room for the Messianic Jews is both distressing and wrong.
How sad for both Hillel and AJWS